Ok. I’ve thought about this for a long time during my years in SWG and for subsequent years in WoW. I have always thought that there should be more of a separation between PVP and PVE and never the twain shall meet. Let me just say a few things before I start. Firstly I don’t know how any of these ideas could be implemented into the game. I have said it several times that I am not a programmer. But I don’t think any of the ideas that follow will be too hard to put in OR will they change the game drastically. Secondly, I think it is important to know that I am rabidly opposed to PVP due to my experiences with it. Like getting a TEF on the way to a city from a scan and while waiting in the medical facility minding my own business, I am attacked and killed yet again, by someone saying “My guild roxxorz!! You ded, NOOB!!. LOLZ, STFU” things like that made me HATE, LOATHE and DESPISE, not only PVP but most PVP’ers as well. I have since come to realize that not all PVPers are like the one mentioned above. I have known a lot of PVPers that are good people, both in SWG and in WoW. But I am also a firm believer in the saying that a few bad apples can spoil the whole bunch.

My idea is to separate PVP and PVE as much as possible. I always thought PVP should be a choice just like PVE is, and if a player doesn’t want to play either way they shouldn’t have to. I say we make an option to toggle PVP into two categories when you start a character. “PVP optional” and “PVE only.” People who choose PVP optional will get the game system exactly how it once was (or with whatever tweaks the devs decide on for PVP). The only difference people who chose PVE only will see with the game, is that they do not have to worry about being attacked by other PLAYERS when they are TEF’ed, or scanned, or have a bounty placed on them, or even when they chose to participate in the GCW. Other than that the game will be exactly the same and this idea will not limit interaction between PVPers and PVEers in any way, except PVP battle.
This toggle would not be totally permanent in case anyone changes their minds, but I think that it should have severe time constraints between when you can switch between the two formats to limit exploits. Anywhere between 2 days to a week, before you can switch again.


FIRST SYSTEM: PVP OPTIONAL

TEF: As I said before this option would basically be the game as it was. Any TEF will win you not only visibility by oppositely factioned NPC’s but also by oppositely factioned Players.

Bounties: If player bounties are expanded to include smugglers and some others (besides jedi), If you chose PVP optional you are willing to have a player BH come after you if you screw up.

CGW: The only change I would suggest to the GCW would be to split it down the middle. For planet control only PVP victories count by the number of player bases are left standing after some such length of time. The Number of NPC’s killed by PVEers for leveling up they’re faction does not matter.

Covert and Overt: for the PVP optional system the covert and overt rules will still apply the very same way as they do now. Go overt and you are attackable be not only oppositely factioned NPC’s but also oppositely factioned players.


SECOND SYSTEM: PVE ONLY.

TEF: Any TEF gained through any method will make you visible and attackable by oppositely factioned NPC’s ONLY. (With a few exceptions to prevent griefing, ill get to those later)

Bounties: Players who screw up and receive a bounty for their trouble in this system will not have to worry about fending off a player BH. Only NPC BH’s will come after you.

GCW: Since the GCW is split down the middle PVE factional victories mean nothing at all in the GCW and will not effect who runs whatever planet. In this system players may attack as well as BE attacked by NPC’s only.

Covert and Overt: While overt for your faction in this system you are only able to attack random spawn factional NPC’s, or mission NPC’s. Overt players from the opposite faction cannot be attacked. This is only to allow the covert and overt status to be allowed for as the same system by which PVEers deal with factional NPC’s.



Now I have tried to make this as simple and as fair as I could for both sides. I have always thought that PVP should be left to ONLY those that want to play that way. If you do not want to PVP then you do not have to. I have spoken my mind on this several times in the SOE forums for this very same idea. I think that that philosophy pretty much speaks for itself. “Keep PVP among PVPer’s” BUT there were always a few out there that would say that keeping some people free from PVP would “kill it” that no one would PVP.. that is one of the same arguments that plagued the JTL beta (that I was part of) People griping and groaning that they would not be able to shoot anyone and everyone in space. I very much doubt that keeping the two different play styles separated would kill the game. In fact if they are both developed well enough it should keep both sides of this argument happy. My feelings are that anyone that complains about PVP for PVPers. Is obviously upset that he will not be able to attack and kill someone who does not want to PVP. Some immature players actually get a rise out of killing a player that doesn’t know what hit him or isn’t prepared to fend off someone coming after them. These people will use any reason to justify their actions based on game play, but the simple fact is, These few people, these bad apples, only want to kill other players who don’t, won’t, or can’t fight back because they think its funny. Either that, or because Mommy didn’t love them enough.

The vast majority of PVPers, however, are not like that and only want to play the way they like, the same way PVEers wish to play the way they like, I say let them. I do have a few more things to say though regarding preventative measures against exploiting these systems. Before we get into these there should be one more thing added to the game. A different color name or a special tag that will differentiate between PVPer’s and PVEers at all times. So that both play styles will know who if who PVP wise.


EXCEPTIONS TO THE RULE

Any PVE player that heals, buffs, or in any way helps a PVPer (only while they are engaged in a PVP battle) will receive an immediate TEF just like the regular game and will then be attackable by the opposite faction players. This will prevent PVE players being used as invincible heal bots or invincible support.

Any PVE player that attacks and NPC belonging to a PLAYER faction base, Immediately receives a TEF and is attackable by opposite faction players. This is to prevent a wave of un-attackable PVE players clearing out the base NPC’s while the PVP defenders can do nothing but watch. There are plenty of non-player bases to attack and faction up with.

Any PVE player that attacks any factional NPC that is currently engaged in fighting a PVP player will receive an immediate TEF (whether they are in the same group or not). Any PVP player that attacks any factional NPC that is currently engaged in fighting a PVE player (that is outside the PVPer’s group) will lose a hefty amount of FP.

Jedi. THIS is the biggest exception. Jedi players once unlocked will not get the choice to play PVE. Any Jedi will be permanently PVP optional and it will work the very same way it always has. PVP is part of being a Jedi. If you do not wish to PVP in any form, Jedi is definitely not for you.


I don’t know how any of this can be put into the game but that is the ideal way to solve these problems once and for all, in my opinion. It will allow PVPer’s to play against other like-minded players while allowing PVEer’s the right to play how they wish to play. Strictly against NPC’s, while also including rules to help curb some possible exploits.

I’m sorry this is so long. But I hope that you read it all and consider it. I know that this particular community will remain mature and even if you don’t agree with me will be able to explain your own opinions why. Thanks very much.

this seems nice. wit hall the pvp minded threads you had to say something eh? Not that I mind, If you enjoy talking with other palyers or Co-op it make sense.

yeah i had to mention something instead of saying the same thing over and over in several threads.

Aww, you just want to take away all of my fun, don't you?

Now, more than most PvPers, I respect the wishes of non-PvP players. You don't enjoy that style of play, and shouldn't be forced to play it. That said, though, any PvP optional system doesn't force you to PvP. You make choices in game and by those choices either participate or avoid PvP. Also, I respect your desire to "help your team," but a person doesn't join the Army, even during times of peace, to never see battle.

However, in the intersts of An Empire Divided, not A Community Divided, I think I have a pretty good compromise that should allow for your preferred style of play, and mine:

First, I'd like to add to your list of exceptions. All player bases, certain factional POIs, and factionally aligned player cities (see my thread here) should have a border within which all covert players of either faction are TEFed. This border would be visibly delineated, and would give you a 15 second timer to leave before applying the TEF, in case you cross accidentally. This way, Covert players can't be used to scout out enemy fortifications, even if it costs them a week out of PvP.

Now to the compromise. PvP and non PvP players can participate in the GCW on either side through the PvE experience by running missions and performing quests. However, missions and quests are split into Overt and Covert categories. In order to be offered Overt missions, you must be overt, so there is a conscious choice involved. Overt missions will be run against NPC targets of the opposite faction: Rebel camps, Imperial bases, etc. Covert missions will be run against Non-military targets, such as smugglers, pirates, and thugs. Similarly, courier/exploration missions for Overt players would be to military targets (scout the Imperial base, deliver supplies to the front line), while Covert missions would deal with non-aligned NPCs (retrieve the crate of guns from the Black Marketeer, deliver the letter to the grieving family). Both still earn you XP, Credits, and FP. Of course, Overt missions would yield better FP results, the credit and XP side would likely be the same. As for quests, we could easily script in Overt and Covert variants of all quest missions so both types of player can participate, simply by substituting appropriate NPCs.

As for TEFs for scans in NPC cities and other such circumstances, I'd have to think out a compromise there, as well. Maybe the game could keep a log of past TEFs, and you are immune to scans if you haven't recieved a faction TEF in the past week (not enough evidence to link you to the Alliance, etc).

Well, I definately understand what you mean about the bad apples. That's the reason I chose a PvE server on WoW even though I enjoy PvP. I just wanted to stay away from the "Elitists" and their "i roxxor pwnzr u!!!1!!1!" attitudes. I just get my PvP fix on their in battlegrounds and in the arena.

But anyway, I see two problems unaccounted for in your idea. The first is a simple one, if my allies are under attack (even NPCs) I want to be able to help them. It's just a realism factor... *shrug* The other has to do with people who want to do PvE mainly, but don't mind taking a break from their usual routine long enough to participate in a Live Event type GCW battle. They might want to be PvE, then PvP for the event, and then right back to PvE when it's all over. Your system would make them wait.

I also see a couple problems with your exceptions to the rules you created. My first one is, what happens if a PvE player was fighting an NPC and a PvP player helped. Without special coding for that type of scenario I think it might result in the PvE player getting TEF'd on his next hit. But I guess a little extra coding isn't that bad a thing, it could be done. However, that's not the biggest problem I have with the exceptions. If you segregate faction based quests and and add the previously mentioned NPC combat TEF's then you've all but eliminated the ability for PvP and PvE players to have any kind of GCW cooperation. PvP optional doesn't mean they don't want to do PvE as well, and your system as is prevents PvP players from really doing PvE with PvE only players, which I believe is a negative for both sides.

Now I hope you don't think I'm just picking away at your idea in favor of PvP... I really do care about the PvE player as well, but I'm of the opinion that we have to find a happy median most players can agree on and not segregate the two groups completely.

no i dont think you guys are picking my ideas apart. i appreciate your points of view too.. thats was just an ideal case i had in my head and i just wanted to voice my opinions about how TEF's most of the time when i played were a pain in the ass.. and do amount to forced pvp, even if it is accidental. no matter how you explain it... i understand that most people want to PVP some of the time and PVE most of the time. the separation i suggested would only occur when you fight factioned NPC's or other players. but it was just an idea. basically what i wanted to avoid with my idea was the whole ganking thing. you are minding your own business, doing faction quests to rank up and KAPOW three players that just happen to be passing by kick the **** out of you. you should be able to chose whether that happens to you or not. personally i do not enjoy when that happens.

but, Necronomicomp made a point that i want to reply to. there are plenty of people that join the army to not see a battle.. look at any peace time induction records and theyll be much much higher than during wartime. thats a fact that most people only join the army when their isnt currently a war going on. they know its a possibility of course. but WAR usually isnt the reason people join up these days. with a few exceptions. i for a fact know lots of people IRL that joined up for college help or for the sign up bonus only. (could be considered as faction perks in game) and not because they believe in the cause or are gung-ho to go to war or fight anyone..

my character was a smuggler that was only very loosely affiliated with the rebels (mostly because i didnt like imperial players) and i didnt care to support my side very much either. i generally had no interest whatsoever in the GCW but without the inclusion of a third criminal faction a person has to chose one side or the other. i could care less if i saw someone thrashing rebel Npc's.

so basically i was a war profiteer and only went reb to sell faction and before that, while i was an imp i spied for the rebs and made cash that way. there are alot of players that join either side for more reasons than just to help them. my character doesnt care which side wins as long as he can make as much money as he can along the way. so yeah, Nec i DO like your ideas for the different types of Covert or Overt faction quests. I think thats a good idea, it fits how i play my characters and will definately bring more variety to the game as well. BUT my point in my post was to keep the TEF's down to a low roar, so to speak, having covert and overt faction missions is all well and good but when you get TEFed thats still leaving you open for attack from PVP players most of whom will see a red dot on their map and kill you in a hurry assuming you are a PVP player. i dont blame most of them at all. i want to make that clear. but still, TEF is just forced PVP.

Covert detectors around Factionally controlled cities are not fair.. that means coverts from the opposite faction will not be able to enter the city at all without a TEF? not fair. how many instances throughout history have their been spies within the city walls. its always been a problem for thousands of years. i bet the Russians during the cold war would have loved a Covert detector around East Berlin or Moscow. but they didnt have one.

and all starports have scans before you can land or takeoff? i understand the chance to actually get a TEF is still low. but the more scans the greater the risk and the more people like me will get fed up with it. anytime i was killed because of an accidental TEF i shut the game down after i cloned and didnt play for a few days. and i knew alot of people who did the same thing. That aint fair either.

Nec you seem to want to be able to kill anyone from the opposite faction even when they are TEFed by mistake and dont necessarily want to PVP at all, you may think thats fun. but i sure dont and neither do alot of other people.. thats why i hate the TEF system. thats forced PVP no matter how many angles i look at it from. and dont say that if a player doesnt want to pvp then dont join a side. that aint fair either. alot of people love STARWARS and love either side so much that they want to play as a reb or an imp. it doesnt mean that they want to fight other players though.

i say let them kill NPC stormies or reb soldiers to their hearts content without affecting the GCW. and without being massacred by other players unless they want to.

so instead of all these new ideas to increase the amount of scans or TEF's why dont we think of more content for PVP guys so they dont have to kill TEFed players. unless they WANT to kill people who dont want to PVP because they think thats fun. i hope thats not the case

This is the whole reasoning behind Combatant and Special Forces as in the CU. That's a good enough system, I'd think. Personally I like the idea of Stormtroopers being Imperial and not just be point-giving killable NPC's. As in, IMPERIALS will be mad if you just up and kill one. As a rebel, shouldn't I be able to help my brothers-in-arms if some scout comes in and starts shooting the place up? Factional NPCs should be different than normal NPC's, and there should be a risk if you go around killing officials like that. Going hunting or beating up a thug is different from beating up a cop in the middle of the street.

Well, the increased starport scans has been my idea for smuggling, but I've been arguing against TEF scans. My idea was a contraband check, not a faction check. I've been thinking alot about your idea all day and I think I've came up with my own take on how to handle the TEFs. I'll be posting it here shortly once I get it all typed up. It should eliminate 95% of forced PvP, and I personally think it'll work better than the Combatant/Special Forces system.

cool i look forward to reading it. oh and yeah youre right Reirae . the contraband scans ARE different then TEF scans and in that case theyre ok with me.

yeah, this is true......

I personally think tehre should be instanced pve zones taht when you talk to a recruiter you go there and kill rebels and the like, or pve bases/caves that only the oposing faction can enter (imperial cave-rebels can go in)

but then again, if player bounties were added peopel could just hide there...hmm.

I personally think if a moron is pvp'ing, why not ignore them with /addignore moron?

Good discussion guys. Just let me move it over here to Game Ideas..

Carry on!

I'm sorry but i have to disagree.

I am not a PvPer at all, and have never really put in enough practice to become any good at it. I would class myself as a sociable PvEer. But one thing i loved about SWG was the fact that if you had something to hide, you had to be careful. You could get scanned, forced into a fight with some stormies, and have to kill them and get the hell out of there before any players turned up to kick your arse.
I remember one time when i randomly got searched and scanned by a patrol in the desert. I got Tefed and had 10 stormies shooting at me as i tried to ride away. As i was on my way to a starport, i had to watch out for imp players and stormies on the way in to the building, and this required some sneaking and scouting. It was great, and really got the adrenalin pumping.

Now, if we had the option to turn this off, i probably would, just for convenience. But i think it would be a shame, and would take away a really fun aspect of the game.

i think most people have had similar situations khargash. and you are right. it is fun when that happens some times. but thats my whole arguement. if you enjoy that kind of adrenaline pumping chase and run to the town while looking over your shoulder for players who may attack you. then you can. if you dont enjoy it. then you dont have to. its just that easy.

Yes but my point was that i don't think it is that easy. Like i said, if there was the option to turn it off, i probably would, just to save the hassle. And there goes a great aspect.

It would be a shame for anyone (whether you like PVP or not) to be immune to this aspect. It happens very rarely, and it's usually quite easy to avoid or to escape from if you are vaguely competent, so it's not like it's in-your-face all the time. It adds some realism to the game which should be a part of it for everyone.

i can definately see your point of view. and like i said that sometimes is pretty fun, when you know your flagged and your heart pumps like crazy as you run and hide... and get away.. thats fun.

but.. whats not fun is when you get randomly flagged out in the open and you get caught by 3 or 4 pvpers.. get vaporized without even seeing what hit you, and afterwards they piss all over you and make fun of you for being so easy to kill... when you were just on your way to pick up a new swoop or some pants or something. (This doesnt and did not happen ALL the time, and is an extreme example, and i doubt players like this will be on this server to begin with. but my point is the same)

some people just dont dig on being able to be killed by other players, for those people i suggested we keep the pvp killing optional so they can turn it off.. (and there are a rare few PVP players that LOVE to kill people that dont like pvp. for no other reason i can imagine other than they get a rise out of killing people who have no chance to fight back,) to prevent people like that from winning out and overpopulating the server. like what happened to my old one. allow players who want no part in pvp whatsoever to turn it off.

people still get flagged but only NPC's attack them and its still dangerous in certain places. in order to fully participate deeply in the GCW however you will have to pvp.

all im saying is to make it optional for those that wish not to participate in it. that way Pvpers will fight only other pvpers who like the same sort of gameplay. (for those that disagree with 'pvp for pvpers only' in my opinion that means you enjoy killing new players, defenseless artisans and entertainers that happened to get a TEF and people that are no good at pvp rather than another pvper thats ready for you.. this means you are a greifer. and enjoy making other peoples lives miserable) while the non-pvper, will be able to enjoy the game knowing that no other player will be able to gank them.